Author Topic: Hard Pipes  (Read 870 times)

Offline Joe

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Hard Pipes
« on: August 28, 2013, 07:33:51 AM »
Is there really any HP gain with hard pipes? I have installed hard pipes on my PT, but I did it for the bling. I never dyno'd before or after so I don't know if there's any HP gain. What do you say, and why?
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Offline NitroPT

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Re: Hard Pipes
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2013, 11:23:16 AM »
Hard pipes are used to connect the inter cooler to the engine. Aluminum Hard pipes can be used instead of the  rubber hoses installed by the factory. Some factory rubber hoses have been known to expand under high pressure and//or high engine heat which could lead to decreased cooling abilities and the connections becoming loose.
PT Cruiser Turbo models upgrade of Hard pipes only  them selves do not increase power levels in a engine. If the engine and other components are factory any increase as a results of installing hard pipes is generally a results of leaks or pre-existing problems with the factory hoses and connections.


Prefacing  this information that we did the testing and evaluation based on a stock  PT Cruiser  Turbo charger piping.


This is what we found doing a very semi technical test on a PT Cruisers intake piping.
A few months ago I was at the local recycle. Saw a turbo PT with it hood off that had been sitting for some time open to the air and elements mainly the sun. The intake piping parts were still there so I gathered them up along with all the clamps and  attachments ect. In fact they were so badly deteriorated from the sun that the dried out rubber was coming off as dust in my hands.  When I got back to the shop we made a couple of seals to go into each end and secure any other orifice that was open. Having a few ICs laying around I found one that was the correct size for the hose and installed it on the PTs piping. Torqued all the PT hose/pipes to factory spec's 15in.lbs. and made sure the system was secure and sealed . We then introduced air and slowly increased the pressure to 20lbs. This held for 5 minutes (as we set for the testing values in the steps to follow)The next was 30psi, 40psi etc. all the was to a 60psi pressure. The system held! There was some signs of ballooning so we released the air and did several measurements of all the soft rubber and then reintroduced the air psi. The ballooning or soft tube expansion was not even measurable until 50psi and that was roughly about 1mm in the convoluted area  and long hose. 

So for experimentation on maximum sealing limitation we increased the pressure to 100psi at that time the clamps poped off in 2 different places. Even over by over tightening they would not stay on at 100psi

The next thing was to run a flow value. However because we did not use a PT Cruiser inter cooler this proved to be somewhat of a  challenge and the actual final figures we came up with are not accurate to the PT model. We did   calculate the stock tubing will flow more then the capacity of a stock pt intake manifold. 

Our test conclusion was on a PT Cruiser with a Turbo Charged engine hard-pipes replacements are a cosmetic addition and there is questionable performance improvement if any if the factory parts being replaced are in proper order.

Our conclusion about hard pipes offered for Turbo Charged PT Cruisers until by way of  empirical data and information shown different  by  independent none biased testing.


I already know that I will either get a lot of flak here or it will be mentioned on other internet or media ports. I am confident that our playful  and uncontrolled evaluation and testing results will hold scrutiny within the  Performance Industry standard of product testing and evaluation until at such time by way empirical data and independent testing of anyone's hard-pipe products shows different our findings for PT Cruisers.


 
« Last Edit: August 28, 2013, 11:30:36 AM by NitroPT »
Hot rodders are a strange lot. They'll spend thousands of dollars on performance parts to improve acceleration, handling or braking, but most won't spend one dime on testing to discover if all those parts really made a difference!

Offline Joe

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Re: Hard Pipes
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2013, 11:34:05 AM »
So I guess mostly show and no go.
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Offline Nickscruiser

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Re: Hard Pipes
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2013, 08:22:52 PM »
Nitro is spot on with his answer yes theoretically hard pipes won't increase horsepower but they can help with holding boost pressures for longer periods of time over the stock rubber ones simply due that they don't balloon under pressure or heat. Another advantage with a hard pipe is that under high boost applications you can run an actual blow off valve instead of the mopar blue plate which is mostly just a noise maker.
Purple 05 PT GT ATX, Mopar stage 1 PCM, DSP 93 tune, airbox mod, K&N filters, Mopar BOV, motor mount inserts, NGK Iridium plugs, MSD wires, ARP Head Stud, Gates Racing Belt, purple painted Valve cover, Rebuilt motor, Rebuilt (stock) Turbo, AEM guages, check valve, 3in o2, 3in downpipe w/cutout

Offline mole

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Re: Hard Pipes
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2013, 10:06:04 PM »
still running the stock pipes on my black SRT and my PT
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2005 SRT, 04 SRT-4 BWS setup, 04 PtGT BWS setup. Contact me for all your BWS/DCR

Offline NitroPT

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Re: Hard Pipes
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2013, 11:40:43 PM »

The very mild and measurable ballooning that may occur  on some  stock PTs intake tubing this  ballooning may only see slight PCM EFI changes  only during the first part of full throttle  acceleration to peak boost. After boost has been acquired ballooning effect does not  cause change to  the PCM to adjust further the change to the EFI and performance output of the engine is not reduced.  In other words unless you are Drag racing in a specific class and index you should have nothing to worry about. Naturally this is just a theory and would need to Data Log an event of ballooning to verify. Which no one in the history of the Turbo PT Cruiser has done to date!

IMO the ballooning effect has been over dramatized by manufactures and suppliers  of hard pipes and silicone hose replacements on many different model vehicles for years? These manufactures and supplier rely on the end user to spread the placebo effect  word  which is the manufactures  best advertising to the performance level of their parts. This way they are not held accountable if someone gets less then what was read or told from a user of the product. Many times the user of  performance products   exaggerates the results and that information somehow becomes a unsubstantiated Data as the information chain continues along?  It also does not help that some users of performance parts  find a Chassis Dyno operator sensitive to the feeling of their customer wanting better results on a run altering the Deltas for an improved or impressive Dyno run then actual true output.
Hot rodders are a strange lot. They'll spend thousands of dollars on performance parts to improve acceleration, handling or braking, but most won't spend one dime on testing to discover if all those parts really made a difference!

Offline tommyblazin

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Re: Hard Pipes
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2014, 08:52:55 PM »
i know this is a old thread, but from what i can tell i don't have any leaks in my vacuum, i have some decent mods, i will be putting the new upper and lower sections,, the AMX STUFF!!, chrome, with the teflon sprayed inside, from needs wings, he claims it gets 8% better airflow on the bench, but if i notice and thing with boost etc, i will post as these are VERY expensive parts as only 1 guy  makes them now, there was a guy on the forums, but he lets rob from Needs Wings take that over, and i haven't a problem with him, and i've spent a decent roll of cash with him so far, so i trust hiu
TPM see how it goes, if anything, i like the piece of mind, my lower pipe is really flimsy, and i like that i can have a hard pipe setup, that will run cooler, smoother, and more true with the boost...photos and reports to go, i have to put in a new rad, mine leaked, than im putting in a new trans oil pan/gasket  w/plug and trans oil filter, as well as re-locating the trans oil Cooler to under the carwith this, another PT tip!!1
http://www.ebay.com/itm/400725368285?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
 to let more air over the rad, and cool that trans oil alot better, the system is nice if i can fit this 26" badbOY id be happy!!!, so it might be a while, but im a man of my word i will report finding, its the least i can contribute when you have guys like nitro pt on here, spilling mods and how too's for the world to see, and hes helped me a BUCKETLOAD OF CORRECT INFO and excellent mods, my car is getting built right, in the right order, and i truly know it, thanks PT
TOM